SPEAKER_02 0:07

Welcome to Tech Support and Lady Christ. We encourage and quit people to interact with the biblical text. We're your host, Brian Lemasters and Tim Martin.

SPEAKER_00 0:16

In today's episode, we're going to continue our discussion of decoding, special terms, and we'll this is part two of a two-part episode dealing with the word holy. The first time we did this, we talked about holy God. But this episode, we're going to talk about holy persons and people and how that relates to us as Christians today, and maybe even a little bit about how it defined people in the Old Testament.

SPEAKER_02 0:40

Yeah, and I think if this is your first episode, go ahead and pause and go back and listen to last week because it's going to be important to start there with part one that Tim was talking about.

SPEAKER_00 0:50

That's a much better episode.

SPEAKER_02 0:52

Well, hopefully not. Hopefully we don't drop the ball on this one. But um it's important to understand we did a lot of like descrip just defining holy, that concept, God. And anyway, so we're gonna build from that. So if you missed it, go back and listen to this is course 102.

SPEAKER_00 1:09

You need to go listen to 101 because we're not going to define all the terms again.

SPEAKER_02 1:13

All right, so Tim not to recap everything we covered last time, but establishing the idea of holy, we it makes sense that God is holy. You know, we talked through all those different things. Can't argue about that. It seems when you sit in that for a little bit, odd to now think about us as people and everything we bring to the table with our mistakes and failures and how common we, you know, just like it seems like we're the opposite of what the word holy is. So what does it mean that Christians are called to be holy? Is this a status given to us, or is it something that we pursue? I I I would vote for both.

SPEAKER_00 1:56

And here's what I would say, I do think we figure holiness is like this unachievable grade of our behavior and our mental processes. That I'm never going to be holy because I sin, I I have evil thoughts, I do whatever. But let's not forget we're talking about the definition of holy as something being set apart, sacred, made usable by God. We talked about people, places, things last time. And like Israel was a holy people of God. They were called out, they were separated. They didn't behave holy, maybe for about 15 minutes of their existence, you know, as a nation. Uh, and and how did they behave where they were in Israel? I mean, and where they were in Egypt, excuse me. But as a nation, as a community, they were set apart from God. And I think what we see in the New Testament, or what I understand in the New Testament, when it speaks of the church corporately or as a community of a people of God, then the church is sacred and holy and set apart, uh, and it's it's made uh we have access to God through Christ's blood. So the church is holy, and we're all a holy priesthood and able to serve God and and be a part of his chosen people, the ultimate people of Abraham, all adopted in, whether you're Jew or Gentile, all through Christ. So we are holy because we're part of Christ's body, but I do think it also is important that we behave in a way, not only in our actions physically, but our mental actions as well, that is in accordance with the will of God. Just like the people in the Old Testament were expected to obey Torah, uh, and that made them holy and acceptable to God, their sacrifices had to be a certain thing to be holy and acceptable to God, then we have to act in a certain way. But I do think it's a whole lot more when I think about it in the New Testament, I know we're not talking Old Testament, New Testament necessarily, but I think it's more challenging because we we seem to have a much stronger mental aspect and expectations of our mental processes in addition to what we say, you know, gossip, slander, using our tongues in evil ways, uh, where that's a little bit more limited if we think about it in the Old Testament, but it's almost like we worry about every step of our life, every minute, every hour, every day, about focusing on being holy. I don't know if the people of the uh in the Old Testament, if Israel had that feeling all the time. Or like, hey, we're going through what we're supposed to go do. We're not idolatrous, we're obeying the think about the rich young ruler. He's obeyed all those commandments. So I'm ready for eternal life. And Jesus tells him he has to have this really he has to have a mental commitment change that poor people are more important than my money. Uh, and following Jesus is more important than my money, and he he doesn't do that. So I feel that more pressure, I guess. Do you think what do you think about that?

SPEAKER_02 4:48

I wonder, and I don't want to like overplay something that's not there, but when I think about the people of the Old Testament, they were you're right, they were called to be holy, and it was set apart for a purpose. There is still some distance between them and God when you think about what they had to do to cleanse themselves. Um, you think about the priests being special and all those different things that go into it to where that temple is done away with. And now when we think we when we come to the New Testament, like as a the church, like we are the temple of God. And when you think about the Holy Spirit indwells within the believers, like it makes sense for there to be a higher standard there because when you think back to the temple, like it was a very high standard, you know, like sacred space. We talk about sacred spaces, yeah. So when you think about your life as an individual being set apart or being a temple or house of God, it makes sense that it's not just about what you do or say, but it's about you as the entire person.

SPEAKER_00 5:53

Yeah. I think about like when when Paul talks to the church in Corinth and he he's warning them against sexual immorality, prostitution, for example, in particular, don't you know that you are a temple of God? Now, the the you there is plural, but I think it's plural because he's speaking to the whole church. Just like I would say if I was to get up in front of the whole church and go say so, I would say y'all here in the South, or you all, meaning that you all need to do what's right in the sight of Christ. If I made that statement, that means each individual person needs to do that. Now, I don't want to make sure I equate modern speech practices with ancient ones, but sometimes I think he is talking about the congregation as a whole, but I think sometimes he's also talking about individuals. I mean, the the church doesn't unite themselves with a prostitute unless you're equating idolatry and prostitution in that way. And so I do think we are that sacred space now. And it's really even hard to even fathom when we think about the church as a whole, the Capital C church, is is the the dwelling place of God. That's where God is, if that's his new temple, his new sacred space. And then we are individually that way, and we think about how sacred that space was, especially the innermost part of the temple and how very strict, very strict construction, very strict access, and you know, people weren't going around playing, you know, games and fooling around. It was a sacred sp if that's the way we have to keep our bodies and the way that it's set apart in our minds, that really is challenging.

SPEAKER_02 7:25

Yeah. Well, you mentioned like being a priest. You know, we hear another word that gets given.

SPEAKER_00 7:33

Sorry about that. It's okay. Everything's all right. Just drop my water bottle, it's no good. Everybody, don't panic.

SPEAKER_02 7:37

Yeah, don't think Tim just whacked me over that. Like to keep that mouth in. I know you wanted to, but yeah. Um when you think about priest, all those different like terminologies. Another word that we hear sometimes is the idea of a saint. Like we may think of like uh maybe somebody like Peter, but then also like the Catholic Church today will still have different saints. Yeah, sainthood. Like what is that like the word holy? Aren't those associated with one another?

SPEAKER_00 8:05

Yeah, that's an absolute obviously an English word. Uh and it's just translating a Greek word that just means holy one. You know, so yes, it is. I think uh Agios is a saint. Maybe I'm going off the top of my head. Um but yes, very same words. Very so holy one. If you translate that holy one, it would be just fine. But saint is a churchy word. And so um that's what we're called that. But that saint's not some Greek word that means something like that's special like that, other than just somebody who's holy. And so I think we're all saints. I mean, I don't think uh the New Testament teaches that we're all saints. I I know different, you know, Christian traditions have like really, really special people or a saint and given sainthood. It it's almost like a title, like some some Christian tradition may call somebody a reverend or something like that, uh of that nature. And so uh but saint really I wish it was just translated without that. And of course, if we didn't have you know the early English translations that did that, uh primarily translated by people who really thought about people as being as having those titles.

SPEAKER_02 9:05

And I bring that up because depending on people's background with Christianity, they may view somebody like a saint or a minister or a reverend, whoever they kind of grew up hearing a title associated with that, and think, oh, well, that person's called to a higher level of holy.

SPEAKER_00 9:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:26

But when you look at the scriptures, like that's not what we see in the text. That it is like we've been sanctified, that we are um called to the like we all are part of that temple. We're all called to the same level of holiness. So that I think hopefully challenges some people in their thinking of where they fall in the idea of like the church and its holiness.

SPEAKER_00 9:47

Yeah, it's not an ascribed title for individuals. It is what we are when we decide to put on Christ in baptism.

SPEAKER_02 9:52

Yeah, one verse that I think of is Hebrews 10, 10, and it says, And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Just Hebrews, you're gonna get a lot of that imagery back to the Old Testament and connecting it to the priesthood and all that. But it is true, like we have been sanctified, we've been made holy uh because of God. Now, on that flip side, I want us to think about a passage maybe like 1 Peter 1 uh 13 through 16. It reads, Therefore, preparing your minds for action and being sober-minded, set your hope fully on the grace that will be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, but as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, since it is written, You shall be holy, for I am holy. Then that's kind of uh two examples of showing that tension there of an identity we are given as being sanctified in Jesus, but also this hey, just as God is holy, you should conduct your life as one who is holy. What does that actually look like?

SPEAKER_00 10:59

Well, I think you know it's in our behavior specifically, Peter, this in your all your conduct is what the English translation uh there says, some say maybe behavior or something along that. And then he quotes from Leviticus saying, You shall be holy for my holy. So this is a commandment given to God's people in Torah, to Israel, to the Hebrews. And then Peter brings it back to bear here in his epistle to whoever his audience was. Uh, but obviously he's talking to Christians uh and doing that. So be he who called you is holy. We've talked about God is holy, and then so therefore you be holy. Be special, be sacred. You know, I I think all we can do to do that is to behave according to the rules that he's given us. And the additional caveat there is now we have a model of behavior in Jesus Christ. And so not as everything just a you shall and you shall not, but we should be compassionate because Jesus was compassionate. We should be merciful because Jesus was merciful. We should care about the weak and the and the the lame and the poor and the blind and the widow because Jesus was. And so we've got that written down for us. But I mean, Jesus didn't spell everything out in his words, and sometimes he did, but his actions are really what we have to follow too. So we've got that additional, you know, law, if you will, on us to behave like Jesus Christ. Uh and how and and we think about all the attributes we talked about God that makes him holy. His mercy, his justice, his righteousness, and and he defines all the he sets that immovable standard for that, and we have to try to live up to it. I think we get disappointed because we know we can't live up to it perfectly. But we can do our best.

SPEAKER_02 12:40

Yeah. I think sometimes we can at least for me, I I can become lazy and I can fall into a level of comfort where I believe in the ideas of Christianity, but my pursuit of becoming like Christ sometimes isn't as strong. And I think this here is a reminder that in what you're saying, like is not just, oh yeah, I believe that Jesus is the Son of God, but no, it's I'm trying to conform my life to show compassion like he did, to love other people, to be my you know, like all those different things. That's really what it looks like to be a follower of Jesus, is trying to become like your teacher, your master.

SPEAKER_00 13:19

Like I'll take an example of thinking, think about people who uh in different Christian traditions, for example, who who who become uh join some sort of monastic order and they're going to leave an ascetic life. They're giving up all their possessions, all their worldly connections, and then they're just going to study and to do good and things of that nature. They obviously are recognizing that the world can contaminate us and it can distract us, it can make us lazy, and we've got so many things going on and so many distractions, and the world does not encourage us to be holy. You know, and it didn't encourage the Christian, and we're not even facing anything new, neither did the world, even more so. I I think today people think we are worse off. I disagree. Because we are talking about, at least we live, at least the people I'm speaking of just us here in the United States, we really live in a society which has a large number of Christians in it compared to the total population. Versus these early Christians who were absolutely immersed in an overwhelming number of people in society that were idolatrous, uh, even if they weren't immoral people. They may not be have any sex when they were out in their life, they may not be thieves, they may not be greedy, they may give to the poor all the time, they may build synagogues and theaters and whatever. But they didn't worship Yahweh and they practiced idolatry rampantly. They thought they were doing the right thing. I think there's a lot more pressure. Now, what I think we have today is a whole lot more things coming at us faster and more accessible and and quickly than than than maybe they did. Uh and and we have things that um that bring us things before us that somebody else had to go seek out. Now you can sit at your home and look at all kinds of evil things just on your handheld device or your computer where I had to go somewhere to to see that and and and be around that in that day and time. But I do think it's hard to be holy. I think it's hard for Christians to be to achieve a standard that we feel like we need to achieve.

SPEAKER_02 15:23

I don't want to chase this rabbit too far. But when you were talking about comparing our society to theirs, one thing that I think is unique is I feel like then, like when we think about the Christians in scripture, there's a there's a pretty thick drawn line between Christians and society. Where today that line is very murky. So there is more in our society that claim Christianity and all those different things, but I wonder if there's an I'm not saying it's harder, it's a different type of difficulty when it comes to really understanding and defining your identity as the church.

SPEAKER_00 16:06

Yeah, and being holy and being I think about the concept of being set apart and dedicated to something. Think about, and I'm not saying this is right or wrong. We we integrate our Christianity into a lot of corrupted things. We try to integrate Christianity into politics, we try to integrate Christianity in this, we try to get in Christianity into that. And when we begin to blend those things and not just simply try to influence those things or those people who are within it, when we try to blend those things, I just wonder sometimes, does it just instead of being black or white, it becomes very gray, and we allow something to corrupt the church or ourselves when we allow too many human institutions to to integrate too far into that rather than it being this thing. I'm not saying Christian Christianity should be something practiced in a corner, but I like what you said. There should be a thick black line, a fence, a wall between the world and the church that is that has doors in it, where we can go out and talk to the world about Jesus Christ and influence people, and we have to do that, and we have to interact with the world. But also it ought to be a place of refuge and safety, a place that is sacred. It's unstained by the world uh in our personal lives and especially as an institution. So I just wonder sometimes if because and it's good to that and wrong bad with that, but because it's so intertwined with so many things that are not clean and sacred and set apart, does that does that foul the church any? You know, or does it foul Christianity? That's something for the really smart people to think about.

SPEAKER_02 17:43

But along those lines, as individuals, can can people be holy and still struggle with sin? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 17:52

I hope so, or I'm never holy. It's one of those things where I mean I really think so. Uh can we walk in uh the question would be something can we walk in the light and still commit sin? Well, John would say obviously if if John tells us in 1 John that if we confess our sins, he's faithful and just forgive us our sins. Unless he is only referring to the initial point of salvation when we confess our sins, which I don't think he is, then why would there need to be an avenue of confession and forgiveness if there's not going to be any sin? But we're gonna be sure that doesn't we don't say, okay, well then now you got permission to sin. But no, being holy and sacred and set apart, obviously let's think about the chief priest. Let's think about the high priest of Israel. What did he have to do before he went in the holy and holies to provide atonement for Israel's sins every year?

SPEAKER_02 18:36

He had to sacrifice one for himself.

SPEAKER_00 18:38

For his what?

SPEAKER_02 18:39

For his sins.

SPEAKER_00 18:40

Uh that's right. It's a but you go tell me the chief priest of Israel is not holy. You know, and so I'm not saying that sin was acceptable in his life, but he committed sins. And so if not, he wouldn't have to sacrifice a bull for his sins before he goes in and sacrifices the goat and puts the blood on the mercy seat and all that of the Ark of the Covenant. So obviously there was an expectation I don't say expectation, there was a realization that the high priest, who's the only person that could go in there before the presence of God, the mercy seat and holy holies, may have sin in his life that he needs to get atonement for. Yeah. So my answer would be Yes. Yeah. And that's I don't think he's I don't think he's gonna be out there committing idolatry and prostitution and all these things, and God's gonna be okay with with that, but he obviously was gonna make mistakes.

unknown 19:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:26

And one of the words that we're gonna pursue in this series is the word grace. And that's gonna that conversation there will continue to develop. What does that look like? Uh to be holy, but still to wrestle with sin. And our pursuit of holiness and to really value it, are there any dangers that we need to be mindful of in our our mind and heart?

SPEAKER_00 19:48

Trying to think of the way you said.

SPEAKER_02 19:49

I'm thinking of things like maybe arrogance or legalistic, yes, um self-righteous.

SPEAKER_00 19:56

And we want to define legalistic. I mean technically, and like in biblical terms, legalistic means we're trying to integrate things of the Old Testament Torah into New Testament Christianity. You gotta be circumcised in order to be justified. That's legalism. For the most part, when people refer to legalism, they refer to a super strict Christianity and a works-based salvation type Christianity, which in some ways parallels what I just said. But uh I think arrogance is a good word to think about. We don't want to think that we are above anyone else or mightier than anyone else. We are special. We don't need to lose our identity that being in Christ is a special thing, uh, and you are a special person, but we don't deserve that. And so we have to be very careful of being arrogant. We need to be more loving and kind and desire other people to be part of the holy people of God in the church. Uh, but I also do think that um well you you'd kind of define what you were thinking about, like with your strictness or your illegalism thinking. What were you what were you thinking?

SPEAKER_02 20:58

Well, I just think sometimes there can be to the temptation of like, if we feel like, oh, we're doing good, we got all this together that we're better than other people. You know, like, or because I follow all these rules, like, oh, look at me, and we may lose sight of, no, this is still a gift from God, you know, like be through Christ we're holy. I think the arrogance can be a part of it. I think I think sometimes we can think other people can't be holy um because of where they currently are in their life, and to recognize, like, no, we two once walked those shoes and walked down those paths and committed similar sins. You know, like so I just think the pursuit of it is important. And I think when we try to wrestle with that tension of like, what does it look like to be set apart? What does it look like to be holy in a in a sinful world? You know, like it's just it's good to think through all those different things and to make sure that we still in our heart believe people can be saved and that we still Don't need humility. Hopefully that kind of makes sense. No, no, I understand what you're saying. Um, one other passage I know that I for sure want to ask you about is first Peter chapter two verse nine. We referenced a few of these things, but I'll read through it. But it says, You are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you mo that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. Once you were not a people, but now you're God's people. Once you have not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. Sometimes, especially like with the news, I think there's this big debate sometimes about like Israel and all these different things. Like, what's a proper perspective of seeing us as like a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation? Like, I just want to make sure we understand what's being talked about there.

SPEAKER_00 22:58

Um when you talk of Israel, well, I I would say that the comparative here is Israel when they were selected in the Old Testament. Uh and we know that goes all the way really back to the time of Abraham. He and his descendants were going to be selected to be this chosen race of people. He gave a lot of promises in his covenant with Abraham. We see that come to fruition in the Hebrews' uh exodus from Egypt and their conquest of the land and being set up as a nation. But if they had followed God's design, they would have been a really special group of people and you know, completely devoted to God, completely loyal to him, doing the things of Torah that he's commanded to do, and God would have kept showering blessings on them if they'd never stopped, then Israel today would look like the Israel of Solomon's day. And and that's not to say anything geopolitical about the current nation. What I'm just saying is that they never would have divided, they never would have had all these evil kings and uh and got distracted uh in their lives. And so when I think about it, we think about okay, there's there's a chosen nation of Israel that's the people of God, his representatives here on earth. He gave them a covenant, he gave them a set of rules to follow, he gave them promises. Well, the church has that as well. And then I also think about the the Levite, the Levitical priesthood. And perhaps that's what Peter's thinking of here, maybe not, but uh this royal priesthood that the Levites were, their sole purpose was to serve God and serve the temple and its environment, take care of sacrifices, the altar, all those things. They weren't given an allotment of land to manage or anything like that. People were having to give a tenth, the other uh tribes were having to give a tenth of what they had to supply grain, food, you know, agricultural supplies uh to the priesthood and support them. And so we are now those who serve God and operate in his holy, sacred space and realm uh and serving him and doing it, but now it's all of us. It's not just of a particular tribe, if you will. So that's the kind of way I was a lot of like that.

SPEAKER_02 25:04

I think there's a lot of beauty in that. Like this is not talking about the American church or any you know, like any other certain group of people in the world. But when you when you really stop and you think about how diverse the world is, like when you think about the different languages and backgrounds and cultures and experiences of of life, to think about all those that put Christ on as their savior is part of God's chosen people. And the diversity of that.

SPEAKER_00 25:35

Anyways, I just think it's a very beautiful if we think about if Paul could come forward in time today, and let's just for a minute assume that he could even s we could even speak with him. And we were able to show him, we were able to put him in a we'd do a round-the-world tour and show him all the different people, places, and and and nations and groups who have become Christians of all different races and ethnicities and languages, I I think he'd be amazed. I mean, I think he would be amazed to see those the how Christianity has spread to to so many people. Um I think he would ask, you know, could you do some more, you know, and could keep that going. But I think it'd be all it'd be crazy to think about when we think about just how geographically bound and ethnically bound Israel was in this ludibidial place that's not even half the size of Texas, you know. And now we're talking about the whole world. And it's uh it is amazing to think about the diversity that's introduced into that. And of course, there was resistance to that in early Christianity, and I understand why, uh, of people uh of Gentiles allowed to be part of the holy people of God when God had told them for centuries, stay away from those people and don't intermingle with those people and intertwine yourself with those people. I I think Paul would be excited and I think he'd be amazed. Uh I don't know what he would think about. I wouldn't let him watch any TV. Or get on the internet. I would, because he'd be like, oh, I don't know. Y'all done such a good job. And so uh and and you know, I would never would imagine this, but I do think it's amazing what what you say. We just think about the diverse number of people. Just think how many languages there are out there that the Bible doesn't even exist in now. I think I saw a number one time of like 1,600 languages that the Bible doesn't exist in. But there are missionaries out there trying to translate the Bible into languages that have never had the Bible. And uh but it is amazing to me the the it would just be so amazing to think about between Israel, this this little, small, insignificant nation in the ancient Near East, and then all of a sudden it's a global yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:48

Um another part of this that I want to highlight before we close out as well is there's a purpose here of why we're called to be his people, and that's to proclaim him that there is in this unique relationship between God and his holy people that others can come to know who he is and to be called out of darkness. When I wrestle with what does it mean to be holy, I think if I can remember that I'm God's, that I'm not the one in charge of my life, you know, I've given my life over to God. Being holy makes a lot more sense when I recognize that I have been set apart for his purpose. And you know, you think about different people. You talked about Samuel yesterday, you know, like in a sermon of being set apart for a purpose, like to serve God, and we all have been set apart to serve him and to praise him and to give him glory, then the idea of holiness makes sense even in our imperfections.

SPEAKER_00 28:53

Yeah, it does. And I don't think people should be discouraged when they make mistakes. That there's only one perfect person who's never sinned, and that was Jesus Christ. And even Paul sinned, he made mistakes. A lot of the great people we talk about in the Bible have sinned and made mistakes. And uh Peter made mistakes and sinned, and I think even Peter, when he was writing this later in his life, would not come up and say, Oh, yeah, I hadn't sinned since that time, I denied Jesus three times. I I don't think he would say that. And so, but we don't want there's this fine line, and we'll talk about that when we talk about grace, between straying from being holy and going back into the darkness, leaving the light and going back into darkness. There's that real dichotomy there, especially in John's writings, between light and dark, and there's no in-between. We just don't want our behavior to revert back to what it was before we became Christians. We can't even imagine people that become Christians for the first time and have lived a life in complete rebellion against anything godly and think that the next day they're just never going to make the same mistakes again. I mean, that's just uh an unreasonable amount of naivety.

SPEAKER_02 30:00

Yeah, and we don't have time to dig into that, but that's where the Holy Spirit comes into play even more in helping us in our sanctification. Um, Tim, I've enjoyed this conversation about being holy. I I hope it's been an encouragement to our audience. Uh, make sure that you check out the description below for additional ways to connect with us to our fellow students of Scripture. Thank you for joining us for tech support.

SPEAKER_01 30:22

We hope you will join us next week. This is a podcast of the Mount Juliet Church of Christ. You can find more personal growth resources like this one at mountjuat.org slash resources. The Mount Juliet Church of Christ exists to glorify God and make disciples by helping people grow in Christ, love one another, and serve others.