SPEAKER_02 0:07

Welcome to Textbook Podcast Manipulature of Christ. We encourage people to interact with the Bible text. We're your host, Brandon Masters in Timothy.

SPEAKER_00 0:16

This week we continue our decoded series looking at various uh concepts and words from the Bible that we try to elaborate on and explain. This week we'll be talking about the word, the English word justification. And we've only got one more episode in this series, Brian. Uh Brian is weeping over there as he thinks about that. Uh in this series, we'll be talking about grace in the next episode, and then we'll be uh taking our summer break and then be back with you in the early fall. And so uh very much looking forward to our discussion today about a word that uh has a lot of different uh has sprung a lot of conversation, a lot of theology, but in reality it's not too complicated of a of a concept, I don't think.

SPEAKER_02 0:56

Let's start with maybe how the word justify is commonly used today. And then once we get a general understanding of how that word's used today, we'll take the next step and compare it to maybe how it's used in the Bible and if it's the same or different. So just start with how do people use the word justify today?

SPEAKER_00 1:12

Yeah, that's one of the things that's kind of a weakness uh in this thing, and and uh there's a reason why it has to be translated this way, and I think it it makes sense. But today when I say I uh you know I'm justified in something, it's almost like uh I've got a reason to do it, or it's valid. Uh my actions are validated for some reason, or they're condoned for some reason, or there's a a a good motive behind them. You know, it's why you we even have it like you know in defenses where somebody's killed a justified killing or a justified homicide, meaning you know, they were will try to kill you. I wasn't gonna go to that link, so I was gonna just yelled at that person because I mean I don't know what you want to talk about. I mean it's a justified shoplifter or something. I mean, I was talking I I think it's important because we think about it towards your j judicial idea, which is a very judicial term that we'll talk about here in a little while, but I think that it causes confusion because of our common use of that word does not have the the weight, maybe that's the right word that it does, I think, in New Testament theology, especially with Paul's teachings. And so I think sometimes we think about, okay, it just means you had a good reason, or it there is an idea of acquittal and vindication here, I think, but to me it's a little too weak, maybe, is a way to say it.

SPEAKER_02 2:35

All right. Well, paint us the picture or define it in some way of how it's used in the New Testament, and is that the same as the Old Testament? But kind of start diving into how this word is used actually in the Bible. Yeah. And it's mean.

SPEAKER_00 2:48

Or how the translated word is used. You know, we think about it in the Old Testament, you'll see the word in English, uh, and I think it renders a few different Hebrew words, but the verb uh sedek, I think sedek is the way you pronounce that word, and just means to justify in English. Well, so then what does that mean? What does it mean to justify? And I think it has a sense, uh, it's often used very corporately, you know, thinking about Israel as a whole versus maybe an individual. And it means to vindicate or to acquit, uh, to let somebody not bear the guilt of something, um, a declaration of being right, which is very similar to the Greek word that we see in the New Testament uh that's translated to justify, uh, or it's a family of words very similar to each other that have the same root uh that mean either the verb to justify or the state of being justified or justification.

SPEAKER_02 3:43

I've heard it being compared to like a legal word, and you hinted at that.

SPEAKER_00 3:48

Is that the only place that it sits, or does it have a broader meaning than that, or is that a good way to think about it as being a look and see, you know, certainly in my understanding is in the uh other literature of the time period, other Greek literature and stuff, that it would mean it have a forensic judicial meaning, meaning that it's a process that has found somebody to be acquitted or to be uh to be right, to not be guilty of a crime. And so I do think it is a very judicial word in that sense because it really deals with a verdict. And as we move into the New Testament, the the word group that it's associated with is righteousness and something being right. And it made me think about another way. Sometimes I've heard people say that it means not guilty. And you know, you and I talked about this. I think that that has a weakness to it because of our impression of a not guilty verdict in our judicial system. Not always. What are you talking about? It's always that's right. We always get it right. That's right, that's right. We have a perfect system of being tried by twelve people uneducated in the law. Um put, think about it this way. We say not guilty. That doesn't always mean, number one, that the defendant is not guilty of the crime. Or it may mean that the defendant's not necessarily guilty of that particular crime. For example, he wasn't guilty of selling drugs on April the 5th, 2025, but he's been selling drugs his whole life. And so he he doesn't have clean hands. He he he may maybe there was insufficient evidence, whatever it may he may beat the rap, as you say this time, but he's still not a righteous person. What I think about it is it'd be more like a not guilty as if some loving father, hardworking guy was convicted of a murder or framed for something, completely innocent, good man, church-going philanthropist, upstanding member of the community, great husband, great father, clean as a slate, and he gets convicted, you know, he gets accused of this crime and he's found not guilty. Like, well, okay, well, he's not guilty, and he's really not guilty of anything. And he don't even jaywalk. And so to me, that is a better way of thinking about when God justifies someone through Christ by his grace, now you're justified before God. You're clean, squeaky clean, and you've been made righteous. We just don't have a verb called righteous, and so that's why we say justified. You know, it just really means to be made righteous. And my understanding and looking at it is it means made completely, completely clean.

SPEAKER_02 6:34

Being justified is just the verb form of being righteous.

SPEAKER_00 6:38

Yeah, it it's related to that word um dicaiasune, I think is the Greek word that we see translated righteousness often uh and dick dico is dica is how can you pronounce that word? It's hard, but it's got three vowels together. Um that means to just to make righteous. And if you think about it, I've seen someone, I maybe it was Dan Winkler that wrote a book called Justified Never Sinned, meaning that the state that you're put in with Christ is if you had never sinned, which is different than not guilty of a particular sin. Does that make sense? And so that's a really massive thing if you think about all the sin that we're guilty of in our life, that that's all gone away, and now we stand before God as a completely clean individual with no record of any wrongdoing, even though we've had wrongdoing, that wrongdoing's completely gone away. And so that to me is different than just thinking about you, you know, you're not held guilty of it. It does involve us not being punished because of it, justification, you know, abrogates punishment, but it it's different, I think, than just saying, oh, you're not guilty of one particular thing. You're not guilty of anything. And that's not something we that's not how our justice system may work.

SPEAKER_02 7:56

I want to give you some other words to try to maybe like hone in a little bit on this word, or for us to kind of wrap our minds around some different English words that we hear when it talks about some of these what I would call like salvation words. And is it kind of saying the same thing, but it's just adding some nuance or a deeper picture kind of for us to think about? So one of those words was righteousness, which I feel like you've given us the comparison there. What about other words like redemption and reconciliation and sanctification? Are those pretty much the same word? Should we view them differently when we see them in the text?

SPEAKER_00 8:36

Or I think that they all occur for the same reason and by the same avenue that justification through the person and work of Jesus Christ is how we obtain this. We think about in their original context, the concept of something being sanctified to them is is we we don't talk about that a lot today. We may throw that word around, we may put it in our songs, but really and we've talked about that in this in this podcast uh before. It's for something to be set apart and sacred and holy for divine use, for use involving the deity. And so that's something that would be when we looked at the word holy there. Yeah, it goes back to the word holy. So something's made holy for the Israelites, it was certain objects in the temple, or a priesthood, or a uh a a container like the Ark of the Covenant, or a facility like the temple or the tabernacle, that they're set apart. The tabernacle wasn't a place where they went in and had, you know, their regular, you know, birthday parties. And it was something very important and set apart and sacred. So I think that we have to understand that, so okay, it's something that is made useful for God. So I think when we think about as being sanctified, yeah, we're sanctified by the blood of Christ, just like we're justified by the blood of Christ. But there's a purpose and a function of being sanctified. And then you said reconciliation. Yes, reconciliation. You know, that's a big concept we think about, okay. Man was separated from God because of sin, and that gulf of sin existed and could not be bridged completely. There's no question that that the Israelites had an avenue for atonement, but they had to offer it every year, year after year, like the Hebrew writer says, it couldn't ever be a permanent fix for the people of God. But then along comes Jesus, the perfect human sacrifice and which is equated to human sin, and so all of a sudden now that gulf is bridged, and we can have access back to God uh through Jesus Christ. And so that's what I think about reconciliation. Once again, the avenue is the same through Jesus' work on the cross, but the concept is different.

SPEAKER_02 10:42

And so And then the last one was redemption.

SPEAKER_00 10:46

Yeah, I've seen a lot of I'm I'm not able to comment on this very deep because I really I don't think of I have never thought about, you know, there's a uh study in theology out there, I guess different ways of salvation theology. Soteriology is the name of that study. And like redemptive theology and all these other things are like sometimes I hear people talk about redemption like Jesus paid a coupon for us, you know. Um and so there's a lot of debate about what that means, but to me it means that we've been purchased by Jesus' blood, he paid a penalty for us so that we can be you know, I think about redeeming something, you know, bringing it back or having a value of it. I don't even really know how to define the English word very well associated with what what would you say it would mean?

SPEAKER_02 11:39

I would say redemption, meaning like being brought being bought, like purchased. Um Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:45

Sometimes we think we say we say redemptions almost like somebody somebody was doing something bad and or they did something bad and they turn around and did something really, really good, and they redeem themselves in my mind. And so maybe they've restored themselves back to uh a good state, which would be something very parallel to justification.

SPEAKER_02 12:03

So Yeah. No, I I thought it was worth walking through those words because we associate all of them with what Jesus has done to save us, but there's different I would call them word pictures, like there's different things that bring or illustrate what he's done in that relationship and how we're like uh we made peace now with God through Jesus. Yeah, Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 12:24

Especially for the ancient mind, I think those words had different nuances to them that was important.

SPEAKER_02 12:31

How this may sound weird at first, and I can reword it if I need to, but how is justification possible through Jesus? Or maybe another way of saying that is how can God declare guilty people righteous and still be just Well, that's heavy.

SPEAKER_00 12:54

So I guess my initial reaction would be to that is that uh it is God's choice and one that he set up a plan for. We're told New Testament before the beginning of time for to reconcile humans back to him. And then we we we could say through the light of New Testament study, we understand there's some prophetic utterances that say God's going to do this. And so to me, God's justice is shown in the fact that he carried through with his plan and he kept his promises. Um he didn't have to, and that's what Grace is about to we'll talk about some of that next episode. But Yeah, I think he's just because he said he would do this. And so he did it. And so that's that's what's just in my mind. I don't I don't know, that's maybe a weak answer to that.

SPEAKER_02 13:49

No, no, no. I think it's a good answer, and it's I think this is one of those where a lot of the old testament gets tied back into that when you think about the sacrifices and you know, just everything that's wrapped up in what it meant that Jesus went to the cross and then conquered death there is that that justification, that ability to make us pure is through his sacrifice. So that's weird. That is weird.

SPEAKER_00 14:13

It's weird to uh It's weird to us talking about blood offering cleansing of sin. We throw that around a lot, but if you're gonna stop and think about it, that's a pretty foreign idea to us. But it wouldn't been a foreign idea to them.

SPEAKER_02 14:23

I mean, most of us aren't killing animals for food or any you know I'm saying, like, so we're so far removed from even that idea of shedding blood.

SPEAKER_00 14:34

Even non-Jews would think about appeasing the God through appeasing their gods, maybe their anger or pleasing them through a blood sacrifice. So to us it's weird, even though we say it a lot, it's a weird concept.

SPEAKER_02 14:49

Yeah. I mean, every Sunday we take the Lord's Supper and Yeah, we talk about it just like we talk about.

SPEAKER_00 14:53

Yeah, like we just don't don't understand. But you know, li blood is equated to life. And so we think about you know, eternal life and things of that nature, and and Jesus when Jesus said life and death, he was typically talking about something deeper than just the beginning and end of of our physical lives on this earth. And so, yeah, I think that I don't know why it had to happen that way. And that's strange to me, but I'm not so sure that would have been strange to the ancient audience. You know what I mean? They'd be like, oh yeah, I understand why there had to be a blood sacrifice. But you know, then it seems really weird when you start talking about human sacrifice, so only God knows why it had to happen that way.

SPEAKER_02 15:30

And it's definitely to me, I put in the category of faith. Like things don't always have to make sense to us. But we have the foreshadowing in the Old Testament of talking about that that that needing to occur. It occurs, everything's built upon that uh moment. And when we think about the theology in the New Testament, like we know, okay, we're justified, we're made pure, we can be holy, we can be righteous before God because of Jesus. Um I guess a follow-up question to that is how is justification received? That may not be the right word, but we know it occurs through Jesus, but how how do I like get justification?

SPEAKER_00 16:09

Yeah, I'm trying to think about uh how is it bestowed or how is it? Yeah, yeah, that might be a better yeah. Yeah, I don't know how how that's what the right verb is to say how that's how do you get in a state of being justified before God? And to me, I you know, the way I understand, especially we we see a lot of this theology in Paul's writing to the Romans and to the Galatian churches, that it's oh it's not through works. You know, that's really the big polemic that he's going through in his rhetoric is for the Jews, they still a lot of them are still trying to achieve righteousness before God through doing the works of the mo of the of the Torah. And he's he he argues back against it, say, no, no, now now under the new covenant, the only way you can receive justification is because of the grace of God and sending Jesus Christ to die for our sins. And then as we look at a total soteriology, is the way we receive that, the way you're in Christ, is by being baptized into Christ for the forgiveness of our sins and maintaining a righteous relationship with him. But that that idea of faith and belief that he says, hey, the Gentiles are doing a good job of this. They are placing their faith in Christ, and that's how they're justified. And then he uses the illustration of Abraham and says, you know, and really, you know, Old Testament quotation, Abraham believed God and it was counted in him as righteousness. And so he goes back. No, Abraham behaved according to his faith and trust in God. He reacted and he did what he said to do, but he was counted as righteous because of a mental decision, I guess, or a mental process of placing his faith and trust in God. And so as we place our faith and trust in Christ, now that's a big well, what does that mean that I've placed my faith and trust in? Well, I have to believe in the message that Jesus brought us and the message of salvation that God has given, and I have to act out the avenue and walk down the path of salvation through belief and baptism and faithful living after that. So I would say that the point at which we receive justification would be at the point we're forgiven of our sins. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_02 18:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:17

So those two things would be.

SPEAKER_02 18:18

It goes back to the blood of Jesus. Yeah. I think reading a passage maybe from Romans may be helpful here. Uh there's several that we could pull from, but I'm gonna read from Romans chapter three, uh starting in verse uh twenty-three. It says, For all have sinned and falled short of the glory of God. We've talked about sin previously in this series, and are justified by his grace as a gift through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forth as a propitiation by his blood to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness because in him divine uh forbearance, he had passed over former sins. So a lot of key things that hits on there. One, it introduces the idea of sin, but that we're redeemed, we're justified um through the grace of God. It's a gift, like you were saying, it's not something that we can earn by ourselves. Um, but it requires faith in Jesus Christ there.

SPEAKER_00 19:15

Yeah, it's the importance of a gift, and we'll probably talk about this more next week, but it's a gift that we can't reciprocate, which would be a very common thing in the ancient world, is to reciprocate. We've talked about this in previous podcasts, is uh to reciprocate. Somebody, if I gave you a gift, I would expect you to repay that gift uh to me. We would swap gifts. Um we can't repay that, and it is a an act of grace, and like I said, we'll expand on that. People are probably like, I'd rather hear what propitiation means than what justification means. I that were I hate that word. I mean, I just really I really wish we could have translated that better.

SPEAKER_02 19:50

So you really feel like that.

SPEAKER_00 19:51

Well, I mean, I mean, I you know, I don't hate the concept, but I mean the word is an English word. Um, and it's really it's really tough and it c because it's a big word. I I bet you that I haven't ever.

SPEAKER_02 20:02

What would you want it to say?

SPEAKER_00 20:03

I I don't know. I would I would probably want to say whatever like the New Living translation of the Bible in basic basic English say, and I'm gonna look that up. I'm curious how it's translated outside of the the King James legacy and tradition. Uh Tim's hot take today. That's right. Uh God present that the Christian Standard Bible does a good job. God presented him as the mercy seat by his blood, which is a good definition of propitiation and its concept uh as the mercy seat, which was the lid of the ark. What'd they do in Latin with it? Why propitiation. That's why we get that word, is because it's translated in there's a Latin term that gets brought into English in that way. But we're not talking about propitiation.

SPEAKER_02 20:47

Yeah, well that's true. Hey, as I was thinking through this episode, I tried to think of some ways that maybe meet people misunderstand justification. So I'm gonna throw some of these out and see if you like agree with them, disagree with them, or so forth. So ways I think justification can be misunderstood if people see justification as a means of God ignoring or sweeping sin under the rug. As in it's like, oh yeah, they're sinful people, but I'm just gonna say that they're good. You know, kind of like when we think of our legal system, like you said earlier. Um, nah, you you it's all right, y'all can just be good. We're not gonna we're just gonna ignore sin, I guess you could say. I would say that's a misunderstanding because sins your sin or our sin is not being ignored, it's being handled through Jesus. Yes. So that's that's a difference there. And that kind of goes back to my question about how can God still be just.

SPEAKER_00 21:54

You know, you know, for example, I had a juvenile criminal record, but when I turned 18, that record was wiped out. Yeah. So you can't go back and and and say that we're we're confessing here. Has enough time passed for you. And so it's gone. Like right now, somebody can't look that up. And so if a record was expunged, to me it's different than saying it's ignored. God doesn't overlook it. It's erased. It's it's gone. And so we can't be held guilty of it anymore. And so that yeah, that's a much better thought process.

SPEAKER_02 22:25

What about this mindset that God will justify me as long as I'm like trying to be a good person or following kind of most of the rules of the Bible? You're talking about after you're saved? No, no, no. Just in life. People that maybe hold that view of, you know what, God, He's loving, like He'll He'll justify me just because I'm a decent person, you know, like in And they expect God to kind of do that.

SPEAKER_00 22:53

And I've made mistakes, but I've redeemed myself. I think it comes from a concept probably that Paul was fighting against uh maybe different. I don't want to compare obeying Torah to what you just said, but yeah, there's a lot of folks that feel like they've done enough good deeds and they they've generally righteous behavior, they're philanthrop, you know, they're philanthropists, they help out people, and without those kind of people, this world would be in bad shape. But I don't think we can have justification without faith in Christ in obedience to the gospel. I think that's a plain teaching. Because if we could, then there's no need for Jesus to come. I'd be pretty angry if I was Jesus, if God said, you know what? I'm being facetious here, but I'd be pretty upset if he's like, you know what, I think I'm gonna let them people off the hook after all. I'd be like, hold on a second there. I went through pretty lot of pain and shame and suffering. To save these people. To save these people. And you and yeah, I asked you if I had to do it three times and you didn't, you didn't let me off the hook. So yeah, I mean to me it's an absurd thought. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:54

It goes against the core teaching of the New Testament. Um but yet I feel like that's a commonly held idea among Yeah, among American people.

SPEAKER_00 24:04

A lot of American people, yeah. That's right. Because we don't want to we don't want to pay the penalty for anything. We really just don't want to be blamed or have to pay for our mistakes. We ensure our way out of those things.

SPEAKER_02 24:15

Aaron Powell All right. Now on the opposite end of the spectrum, what about those that hold to this idea because I'm justified, I gotta be perfect now or I'm no longer gonna be holy.

SPEAKER_00 24:27

That's a tough you know thing. I I I run into we we talk about this often, you know, a lot of my classes, uh especially our daytime classes, have a lot of our more senior members in them. And my understanding from them and and that generation is that they really were the guilt trip was really put on them a lot, is that because you've been justified, you you can't make a mistake. You know, you have to live this perfect life. And uh that was, of course, probably put on them by preachers and teachers who live far from living a perfect life. But they really carried a lot of guilt because of that. And they felt like every time they made a mistake. I remember one of my professors at Amherage, who's like 91, he said, you know, that's how it was preached to us. We we we felt guilty every day. If I made one mistake or had one mental slip, or I looked at a woman and thought she was good looking and lusted after that now I've lost my salvation. And uh like it was almost like you got to be rebaptized every day or something. And so I know that a lot of people uh you know, and I I'll talk we'll talk next week about a couple of different buckets that I think of when I think about grace.

SPEAKER_02 25:27

Yeah, I'm excited for next week because I think that's a topic people sometimes struggle to really.

SPEAKER_00 25:32

I don't think grace is carte blanche permission for people to act however they want to. If we've been justified, then we we've had that record expunged, but we're going to make mistakes. But the question is whether or not our life is a practice of darkness or our life is a practice of light. You know, are we are we are we striving and growing and improving? I think that there would if we if God thought we were never gonna sin again, there'd be no reason for John to say if you confess your sins, he's faithful and just enough to forgive your sins. Now, some people might say, well, that's just talking about your initial salvation, you've got to be perfect from that point out. You know, I do believe that we could live a life you know, we talked about this before, I can't remember if it was on the podcast or not, but you know, I I think it's possible for you to live a life without physically sinning. But when Jesus opens up the door and the New Testament opens up the door to these mental things jealousy, envy, lust, anger, man, I mean, there's no way you can go without that uh in doing that. But I mean, I I really do think I could live my life without committing a physical sin, you know, without stealing, without killing, without sexual immorality, without idolatry. I think you could strive to do that, but it's when it comes to our mental errors and our mental trespasses. I I can't I've not been, I can't, I don't think I could ever go through life and not be envious uh or be jealous uh or to lust. You know, I just don't think I could do that. And so that adds a whole new thing. You know, I believe Paul lived blameless according to the law. I don't think he violated any statutes of Torah, but that doesn't mean he didn't have sin. Yeah. And so that's pretty tough. And so I mean he he said I'm blameless, which means he cannot be accused of violating the law. And so yeah, but I doesn't I don't think justification all of a sudden is uh a reason that now you can behave however you want to. Making sense.

SPEAKER_02 27:32

Um the last one that one you know was about being perfect. This final one is if faith is what I need to be justified, like believing in Jesus and the gospel, does obedience matter that much then? Sometimes this gets paired up with like Paul versus like James sometimes. But for those that are like, okay, well, yeah, I believe in God. Like the Bible says all I need to do is have faith. So obedience isn't that important. Like, is that a misunderstanding of justification?

SPEAKER_00 28:04

Yeah, but number one, there's really no there's no uh dichotomy between Paul and James. Paul is talking about works of the law, James is talking about meritorious deeds. Uh and those can overlap. I don't want to say that wrong. But what James is saying is you can't say that you're a person of faith and belief in Jesus Christ and never do anything to take care of the widow and the orphan or the poor or you know, whatever that winds up being. You just can't be someone who never does anything that's pleasing to God. And we've been given those things to do. Uh that's different from what Paul is arguing about. Paul is arguing, perhaps in Romans and Galatians both, that there are Jews who are still requiring Gentiles, or they even still believe that they have to obey the tenets of Torah in order to be justified, or in order, even though they may have obeyed the gospel, they may have been baptized, they're still holding on to these works of the law. Uh, and those are part of a former covenant. Uh it's a big area of study that a lot of people do. Covenantal gnomism is a big phrase that people talk about saying, hey, you know, because you're in a covenant and there are laws, uh, that's where gnomism comes from. And there's laws in there, then you have to follow them to be part of that covenant. I agree with that logic, even in the new covenant. Under the new covenant, there are rules and regulations I'm expected to behave by. And if I just stop doing those, then I'm no longer part of that covenant. But there's no, there's no, I don't think there's any disagreement. I don't think you can juxtapose what Paul has to say and what James has to say. It does present an issue when we talk to folks and they say, okay, I understand what you're saying. I can just, I believe in Jesus Christ. I believe he was the Son of God, and I'm going to change my life and I'm going to act. They're going to hear, they're going to believe, and they're going to repent, and they're going to live a faithful life. They may even confess that Jesus is the Son of God. And so, really, all of those things are wrapped up in what I would say the majority of Protestant Christianity teaches as necessary for salvation, whether you're going to call that the sinner's prayer or whatever you want to call it. Then we introduce this concept of baptism. And we say, okay, now baptism is an action, which is true. Some would say baptism is a work. I don't think that is the same as what James is saying when you're talking about doing good things and helping out other people. That's not the same. Nor is it the same thing that Paul is saying, and the fact is that you have to observe Passover, or you have to be circumcised, or you have to observe dietary laws still in doing that. But it's hard to clarify that when we say, okay, this is a requirement of your salvation and it is an action you must perform. Well, that does cause issues. And we can't deny that that does cause some friction in in okay, well, you're saying that I'm saved and justified through faith. And Paul says that. But you added that element of obedience. And so when we think about what is it necessary, how what is necessary to enter that covenant, and an action is necessary. Now, it's only a physical action by us and maybe the person who's helping us in and out of the water. I mean, I firmly believe you could baptize yourself. But God is the one doing the work. God is actually the one to do the action. You can't deny that we're doing a physical ritual. That may be the best way to say it. We are we are performing a ritual in baptism. That's what it's called. In a religious study, they would say baptism is a ritual, a rite that you do. But God's the one that actually does the work. He circumcises the old you know, the old man of sin. So I d I do think it causes some difficulty in biblical studies with people that we say, oh yeah, but you do have to be baptized. And it's very hard for people who are new to faith and maybe new to scripture to to differentiate in the way we just did, and I may have not even been adequate in how I differentiated it. That's a challenge to explain to people and then turn around and say, Well, Paul says that if I confess in my mouth and Jesus is Lord and believe in my heart, I'll be saved. Yes, he does say that. In that very book you just got through reading. And so I think that is it it does it we have we have to recognize that it's something we need to explain. Uh, and it's hard to explain.

SPEAKER_02 32:08

Yeah. And I for me, I hold that faith is more than just an idea, but it is a response to God. So that's a good word.

SPEAKER_00 32:17

I like the response, what our response is.

SPEAKER_02 32:19

Yeah. So I think we see that throughout scripture there and stuff. But you're right. That's a people that's a hard thing sometimes for people to get caught up in some definitions and things and so forth. Um, my my final question to you is this we know when we think about justification and being the verb of righteousness, we know, okay, obviously it has ramifications for judgment day and eternity and all those different things. For our audience, maybe end on a practical thing here. Understanding this concept of justification, how does that help me have a right perspective or a mindset on a day-to-day basis of understanding or appreciating being justified?

SPEAKER_00 33:00

I think that word you said is the best one. Uh, I am the person that Jesus talks about forgiven of a great debt. I I deserve to go to hell. I deserve to be in the hottest corners of hell. Um, but so but I've been forgiven of a great debt, not just a little bit of debt. Uh and so I shouldn't go out and beat my fellow servant who owes me a little bit of money. To to act in gratitude, appreciation, I like that word you used, appreciation to honor what was done. I should have a desire to do what's pleasing to God. I liked what you said earlier. My response to God's gracious gift of ultimately salvation on judgment day, because that's really the big ticket item, right? Uh now there's a lot of blessings to being part of the Lord's fellowship here on this earth and being part of his body and being around believers and this, that, and yon. But the ultimate big thing is that I don't go to hell one day. And maybe we should just stop and appreciate that more. I I wish we would talk about it more. Um but ultimately that's what it is and uh our end time salvation. I I think if we really, really weigh that and take a take a moment to think about the weight of that, then we might feel a little more obligated to behave accordingly. Does that make sense? Yeah. If we think about we can definitely think about it in a monetary sense. There's no doubt that if if you got a mortgage, if if if the whoever your mortgage is with tomorrow called you up and said, Hey, I want you to take me lunch once a week for the next th 25 years and I'm gonna forgive you of your entire mortgage. You'd be like, Where would you like to eat? Yeah. And let's just set a time.

SPEAKER_02 34:46

I don't care what restaurant they pick.

SPEAKER_00 34:48

I don't care what restaurant they pick, it's gonna be cheaper than the mortgage. Well, per se. But you would be like, I tell you what, I will I will honor that obligation. And the thing is, if you ever don't take him to lunch again, he the the debt comes back. Man, you would you'd you'd schedule your whole life around that. And so we think of we it the way we Americans think about money, which is the most important thing in the world to Americans, is think about the economic benefit like that. And that's not even your soul. That's right, that's not the eternal soul. Uh, but it is a debt you incurred that's being wiped out, an astronomically challenging thing. Because if he came and said, Hey, I need you to pay that all off tomorrow, but I can't do it. It's impossible. I can't do it. I mean, I know you've got a few hundred grand laying around that you just want to save, but if we just appreciate that, I think that we will act better.

SPEAKER_02 35:38

No, I think that's a good point to end on. I think sometimes we struggle to catch how much our penalty actually was, like how much we were actually being accused of. Like I go back to like the courtroom, and if we don't really understand being lost, it's hard to really appreciate being justified by Jesus and what God did to save us uh from our sins. Um, thank you for joining us for tech support. We encourage you to check out the description below for additional ways to connect with us to our fellow students of Scripture. Thank you for joining us for tech support.

SPEAKER_01 36:13

We hope you will join us next week. This is a podcast of the Mount Juliet Church of Christ. You can find more personal growth resources like this one at mountjuliot.org slash resources. The Mount Juliet Church of Christ exists to glorify God and make disciples by helping people grow in Christ, love one another, and serve others.